Talking Shizzle
Talking Shizzle
What is Marketing, Really? with Matt Hug
In this conversation, Matt Hug discusses his background in marketing and fundraising for nonprofits. He talks about how he started his own business, and how he discovered his talent for writing and teaching. He also discusses some of the common marketing myths that he has written about.
Matt started nonprofit.courses as a way to curate helpful content for people working in the nonprofit sector. The site now has over 7,000 videos and 200 content experts, and Matt continues to add new content on a regular basis. One of the things that makes nonprofit.courses unique is that it includes a wide range of topics - from fundraising to accounting to HR - that are relevant to nonprofits.
Marketing is about creating and delivering value to customers. It is about understanding customer needs and desires and then creating a unique offering that meets those needs. Marketing also involves creating a relationship with the customer, so that they keep coming back for more.
Marketing Myths with Matt Hugg:
- The Pivotal Moment in Matt's Marketing Strategy
- The Power of Marketing: 4 Myths Debunked
- The Importance of Marketing and Branding in Business
- The Power of Selling Yourself: Overcoming Entrepreneurial Obstacles
Connect with Matt Hug:
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/NonprofitCourses
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/nonprofitcourses/
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/NPdotCourses
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/nonprofitcourses/
And visit Nonprofit Courses here: https://nonprofit.courses
00:00.00
Taylor Shanklin
All right- Hello hello friends we are here on an episode of talking shizzle where we're gonna talk about marketing shizzle with Matt Hug and that is Matt Hug people not huge not hugs with an enough none other than hug.
00:13.62
Matt Hug
Um, I'm really good. You know the name's just that simple right? Don't overcomplicate life and that's probably a lesson we all should have for a lot of things just like that's not overcomplicating things.
00:18.28
Taylor Shanklin
How's it going? Matt Hug how are you today?
00:24.31
Taylor Shanklin
It's just that.
00:31.89
Taylor Shanklin
I'm with you on that so you got lucky with an uncomplicated name unlike many of us and well I'm excited today to talk about some marketing myths that you've written about and learn a little bit about
00:37.10
Matt Hug
Sure
00:48.71
Taylor Shanklin
Learn a little bit about your entrepreneurial story with nonprofit courses. Tell us a bit about you and how you started your company and went out onto this entrepreneurial wide deep blue ocean that we all swim today.
00:49.94
Matt Hug
Sure. Okay.
01:00.43
Matt Hug
Yeah, ah well I'll tell it's funny. You talk about swimming because um, my yeah, my father had his own business as it did his father and so it's a multigenerational thing in our family but um, his business was swim goods. um ah but yeah what I um I about 30 years or so of fundraising for nonprofit organizations did work for a couple universities work for the boy scouts. In fact, in Southern New Jersey and um about 25 or so ah, you know when you're in fundraising I tell people it's like being an Nfl coach you know sometimes ah ah they leave you instead of you leaving them and so um, they left me and I said you know I want to do something different and being. In None ne's own business was something that just was natural because I grew up with it. You know I watched my dad ah work a lot of evenings and weekends at the dining room table which only got cleared off for holidays. Ah so um, to go ahead and you know. Took the dive started with kind of standard consulting and fundraising and something that I discovered was people kind of told me what I was good at even though I didn't see it in myself and ah started doing a lot of writing had an opportunity to teach. I have a master's degree in philanthropy and development from St Mary's University in wenona minnesota and ah now um when I was teaching I was trying to bring in some different methods and I was using Youtube playlists for that I'd come up with a handful of things that illustrated a concept. And nonprofit dot courses. Ah which is ah the business today ah is think of it as the super playlist for all things nonprofit. So I have not only fundraising videos there now I have accounting videos I have HR. and I like to say it's nonprofit focused like fundraising or you know accounting for nonprofits and things like that and then nonprofit helpful because I have a lot of things that nonprofits need but aren't really focused ah specifically to nonprofits like how to make ah presentations or um. Ah, dei videos or hr stuff things like that that kind of cut across sectors that a lot of folks have a hard time finding in the nonprofit sector because you got to look so many places so it's kind of a 1 ne-stop shop. Ah, it's ah of huge.
03:45.80
Matt Hug
Portion of the content is free because you know information wants to be free. Ah so it's advertising supported plus I sell a few courses not aren't just mine but you know others and so that helps support the website as well. But yeah, it all kind of came out of my teaching and ah so I love doing it I love. And teaching I love stuff like we're doing today and um, no, that's kind of where it is now. So ah, go to the site. It's nonprofit dot courses not http://dotorgor.com.courses new top level domain which I discovered by the way kind of by accident um and nonprofit wasn't taken and. Um, you know, go find what you need. That's why it's there.
04:28.22
Taylor Shanklin
And I love it. Well you were're gonna get into marketing myths and we're gonna bust some of those myths. But as someone who's grown their business. You've been doing it how long when when did you start it.
04:34.10
Matt Hug
Um, yeah.
04:39.53
Matt Hug
Ah, well nonprofit duck courses is coming up on 5 years now ah my own consulting and working independently since o 5
04:43.98
Taylor Shanklin
Okay, yeah.
04:53.15
Taylor Shanklin
I'm curious if there's something in terms of the growth of nonprofit courses because you have a lot of partners on there with their content. You have you have a ton of content and information.
04:57.49
Matt Hug
Um, oh yeah, yeah, like 7000 videos and 200 content experts including yourself. Thank you.
05:06.72
Taylor Shanklin
Yeah, so was there a moment in time where you like things just kind of clicked in the last five years and you hit sort of like a growth trajectory I'm curious about if there was a a pivotal moment or anything like that.
05:22.73
Matt Hug
Yeah, you know it's funny I think it was around when I was at about None videos. Um, when people started saying wow there's there's some here here you know there's there's something that the go see and um. I really wanted to grow that content because I wanted people to have things that were useful to him and and make it a destination place and so ah, it it was having enough there. Ah that um that that people found worthwhile I think really made a big difference. That's when I started seeing some numbers go up I started paying much more attention to ah search engine optimization. Um that ah through some things like and if you work in the wordpress world and by the way my my ah designs and ah. Website development skills have really rammpped up. Ah, but yoast is something that's been a tremendous help ah in Seo and ah, no placements of of articles and um and other content out that. Links back to the site that's made a big difference.
06:33.27
Taylor Shanklin
That awesome well and I asked that because as we're gonna get into the topics of like how to market a business. What is marketing really I think it's important in people that context about the you know how you've seen growth in 5 years in your own business with your.
06:40.38
Matt Hug
Yeah, yeah.
06:52.90
Taylor Shanklin
Your online coursework. So let's do talk about what is marketing really you and I were talking offline about like kind of marketing 1 on 1 stuff that people miss and get wrong and how we need to sometimes just go back to the basics. What.
06:59.66
Matt Hug
Um, yeah.
07:10.95
Taylor Shanklin
What's your definition of marketing Matt Hug.
07:11.32
Matt Hug
You know it's it's straight I think marketing is everything and I don't mean you know? yeah you can take that in a couple ways. Wow marketing is everything you know it's ah the most important thing which I really believe it is in a lot of ways I had a. Ah, boss. Ah when I worked in Cincinnati who worked at a ah a rather sizable ah state in the lower 48 and said that everything ah there they did was um was promoted more than it was everything we did in Cincinnati. Ah, was much more than we promoted and the point being that when when you put good promotion or good marketing behind something you can take something that may not be quite so good but people will really grasp it and grab onto it. But it's really powerful when you have something that is excellent. And you promote it well or do the marketing things. Well I should say that because it's not just promotion and that's the point that um marketing is not um, your your brand ah logo. It's not the the noise that whatever makes. You know when when they come up on your web site. Whatever that is right? That's not just marketing. Ah, its marketing is everything. It's everything we do.
08:35.63
Taylor Shanklin
So what? then with if marketing is everything what are some of the coms common misconceptions about marketing. You've got 4 4 of your favorite myths that you've put out that you've written about.
08:39.70
Matt Hug
Um, yep.
08:54.90
Matt Hug
Yeah I mean you know somebody might say well we're not ah we're not in the selling business. You know we don't market in our field. Well, that's absolutely wrong. Um, think about this way marketing is your reputation.
08:55.50
Taylor Shanklin
Tell us about those you.
09:13.19
Matt Hug
Ah, my mother would say well your reputation precedes you right? Well, How do you build your reputation. Well it's It's how you smile at people or not. It's the tone of your voice. It's the. How you dress or um, all those things make up your brand your marketing presence personally and the same thing for your business or nonprofit is that Ah, it's like your service delivery right? If if a technician comes into your home to do something. And they are grumpy and dismissive to you right? That's marketing. It's negative marketing. But that's marketing they are ah the projecting the image of your business to the client. So yeah. There is no way you don't market is just how you market because you're always marketing whether you think so or not and that's one of the big myths. There is that that you know you have to have some special program. Well, it's nice if you do, but you're doing it Anyway. So line those things up None.
10:16.91
Taylor Shanklin
And well and people talk about even things like internal marketing so internal marketing and like even just making sure that within your your culture your organization or your company culture that people embody what the marketing is what the branding is you know and.
10:20.35
Matt Hug
Um, oh.
10:36.30
Taylor Shanklin
Your example of the the technician that's in a grumpy mood that gives a bad experience that's on the company right? And so I like you pointed that out I think a lot of times there are parts of marketing that happen in just the everyday interactions that anyone.
10:41.91
Matt Hug
Um, yeah, right.
10:54.82
Taylor Shanklin
Who works at your organization has with its audience.
10:56.60
Matt Hug
Well here I mean that when if somebody were to walk in your office and the paint was peeling and the chairs were dirty and things were just disorganized all over the place right? I mean that you are projecting an image to them that um even if you do really great work. Say yeah you know do I want to be associated with this place right? versus walking into some place that looks bright and clean. Um I mean you know painting ah paint on the wall is marketing. It Also like you say it's internal marketing because the people who are working there need to feel good about what they're doing. I Think it's I Personally think it's important to to explain to folks. Why for example, you want everybody to have the exact tagline image on their email right? It's not because you're trying to squelch individuality or anything it's because you want to present a consistent Brand image. That people always have the right contact information. They always have the right logo. They always have the correct link to whatever website that you you know that's important for everybody who contacts your company to have and I firmly believe that once people understand that. And they say oh well that makes a lot of sense. They're much more willing to get on board with it I Just don't think we explain these things to the internal people so that they can project that right image as a company externally.
12:23.81
Taylor Shanklin
I I love it I So myth number one that we just busted was that nobody quote air quote nobody in our field markets the second myth. What's the second one. It's ah it's a good one.
12:31.29
Matt Hug
Um, yep.
12:36.97
Matt Hug
Um I would tell you got to remind me what we talked about because I.
12:42.54
Taylor Shanklin
Um, so the the None one you told me was marketing is complicated and time consuming. Oh yeah, this one a lot. Yeah.
12:49.50
Matt Hug
Oh yes, yeah I know it's like oh my gosh people think oh marketing and they just roll their eyes and get overwhelmed and say I don't know anything about it. I'm not an expert I can't you know what? what is it or or they they. Tag it to to a mythology like marketing is sales and and that before ah we got on live here. We were told you about Joe e zzu right? Ah joey zuzu was a character from I guess the 70 s or maybe 80 s looking up on Youtube.
13:18.18
Taylor Shanklin
Yeah, get show.
13:25.86
Matt Hug
And ah he sold euzu cars at the time and I guess trucks and ah it was funny. He would tell these totally over the top hyperbole kind of lies or or none truths right? and that was the shtick and that's what he was and yet a lot of people think. That's what sales is that's what marketing is is being over the top about stuff for being complicated or knowing these really esoteric techniques and I will tell you you got to get the basics down first you got to know first of all, what is it that you want to say to people. It doesn't Matt Huger what kind of marketing you're using what what kind of what is it. You want to say what brand do you want to project? How do you want people to look at you and think about yourself when you walk in a room and he talked about you know, personal branding. It's the same thing. So. When you walk in the room or when somebody walks into your business or they see somebody from your business. What do what do you want them to feel about you. Ah, you know, maybe you want to project a very ah knowledgeable, um, image I mean think about this. Why in all those some. Ah, lawyer tv shows right? They always show all the books in the back in the walls and all that right? well because a certain time. That's where all knowledge was held in books and you wanted the lawyer to appear knowledgeable and. And to say oh yes, let me pull out this book from the shelf and this is exactly our problem right? Well but that's marketing and and that it's not complicated. It's just basic stuff I talked but before about painting the walls or about having people um smile. You know when they're out in a call doing things or today I was at a um ah had to go like if anybody you go get blood right? Give blood and you go into the office that they do that. Um, independent companies do this and you know is the are they using technology. Yes. But is a technology there an assistance or is it a barrier and and you have to ask you know? Well, if it's a barrier if it's a way of kind of shunting people away from the person who's sitting at behind the desk is that really the image you want to project so stuff like that like I said it's not complicated. Um, it. It doesn't require design skills necessarily ah you don't have to hire a fancy firm. You just got to actually the big key is looking at something with fresh eyes looking at as I call say in the book chapters I've written on it looking at it with marketing eyes so have somebody.
16:03.40
Matt Hug
Have your you know, ah some a friend your spouse significant other whatever come into that environment and tell tell you what they see because you might be surprised because you just forgot you didn't you never see that anymore.
16:17.67
Taylor Shanklin
Well yeah, and different people are gonna react to things in different ways too. Some people might love the technology at the the blood center. Some people might hate it and so that's another thing about marketing is like I think it's.
16:26.53
Matt Hug
Um, yeah, yeah.
16:34.70
Taylor Shanklin
Overcomplicate it oftentimes because we want everybody to love everything. But when you are all things to all people you usually dilute your marketing Would you agree with that.
16:36.28
Matt Hug
And well you well and actually okay so you really nailed a good one there that I want to highlight which is you got to know your market. You got to know who you can't be a customer to everybody era. Yeah um. Ah, you can't give service to everybody even general motors or Apple doesn't serve everybody. Apple's a great example because they have definitely sliced down into a market for them and so knowing who you are talking to is essential even to the point where you draw a picture of that person. Of a prototype you might even have somebody come in your office dressed up like your typical client and understand their demographics and understand you know what you know where do they live how much education do they have what do they eat for lunch every day you know, whatever it is. Know know the person you are trying to appeal to nonprofits that's kind of a lot of my world. It's bifurcated because you have the donors who look different than the clients and so you have 2 of these avatars to build instead of just one ah but whatever it is. That's huge.
17:48.42
Taylor Shanklin
I love it all right? Let's get on to number 3 number 3 I'm gonna give you a clue I'm just gonna tell it to you does that sound good um ah marketing myth number 3 marketing is disingenuous and feels like.
17:54.86
Matt Hug
Um, yeah police.
18:06.00
Matt Hug
Um, yeah, ah.
18:06.84
Taylor Shanklin
Lying This makes me think of the Badger the badger in the the use car commercials with the badger. It's like so.
18:14.24
Matt Hug
Yeah, now maybe that's a riff on Joey Zuzu I don't know.
18:22.17
Taylor Shanklin
I Don't know why I'm drawing a blank right now on the brand that has those commercials with the badger selling used cars Anyhow, tell us about how bust this myth.
18:26.29
Matt Hug
Um, yeah I will tell you that marketing doesn't work if you're lying bottom line if you are lying it just it's a nonstarter because eventually people will find Out. You're lying. And they will not trust you and so much of marketing is simply about trust so you got to tell the truth you got to tell people what really is happening and and you know yeah, are you going to be perfect. No, but that's okay because really not being Perfect. Tells people you're genuine that. Yeah and and admit to not being perfect and saying yeah you know I know we got some problems there and that's something we're really working to to resolve or ah, tell me how could you help? you know, help help me fix that by telling me what you think about this right and include the people you're marketing to in that conversation. And a lot of folks are really like Wow that because that in itself is really good marketing. Ah, but yeah, it doesn't work if you lie because you'll get found out and so what do they say? It's ah easier to tell the truth because you don't have to remember what your lie was right? So um. Ah, yeah, just ah, um, be upfront about it and folks will ah will respond to that much better than if you are trying to sell them something or they feel like they're being sold something that isn't genuine.
19:55.19
Taylor Shanklin
Yeah, it's the worst to feel like you're being sold so hard I hate that. Ah yeah, we often talk with our clients about you know the authentic Brand framework and what it really means to be authentic in your branding.
20:01.13
Matt Hug
Um, yeah, all right.
20:10.16
Matt Hug
Listen.
20:13.60
Taylor Shanklin
Marketing and it really is it's showing up with yeah who you're trying to talk to what are you trying to say to them. How are you different and how do you have conviction about that and that's really that authenticity that I think people crave and yes people will lie to you in marketing. But that doesn't mean.
20:20.12
Matt Hug
Um, yeah.
20:32.79
Taylor Shanklin
That marketing requires lying and I think that's the point trying to make here. Not at all. It shouldn't You shouldn't you want to build trust over time to build. Yeah, it.
20:33.38
Matt Hug
Um, no, not at all. No. Yep and that's huge I mean there's so many in in our culture today. There is such a um, ah caution. Among people. They don't feel like they can trust somebody or or whatever and no, if you can build trust and an authentic trust and and that you said conviction I think that's huge I mean when you when you are talking to somebody. About whatever it is that you are working with that. You think that they would benefit from having and that's really important to say that it's not like you're giving them something. They don't want or don't need you think they can benefit from it but you have to have that conviction that has to come from you first and and then. Project that conviction to them by just saying hey you know I Really think you will benefit from this and ah because of X Y and Z or whatever.
21:30.83
Taylor Shanklin
I alright so myth number 4 you're gonna put me out of business with this one Matt Hug myth number board is marketing means hiring an expert or consultant. Ah o.
21:43.88
Matt Hug
No no I'm not going to put you out of business because you know the basics of marketing if if your job would be a lot more fun and a lot more sophisticated if people did the things that the baseline stuff. So that then you could come up and bring them to a higher level so there you go ah well like number None have somebody come in just a friend or whatever and look and just look around and tell you know what.
22:01.92
Taylor Shanklin
I Yeah I kid I kid but tell it can do without hiring an expert. What should you be doing in that realm.
22:17.96
Matt Hug
What doesn't make them feel good. What what are they seeing that you don't you know the the chipped furniture or the paint or the disorganization of the office or whatever it is right? So that's number one so look at things with a marketing eye. Um. Make sure that you have conviction of what you are about. But then write that down say you know build yourself as we say in fundraising and a nonprofits build a case. Ah build a reason why you are the best provider of whatever it is that you. Are providing to them and ah why you're the people folks should buy from even if you sell the same thing that everybody else says if it's a commodity right? Commodity sells ah are tough because everybody you know it's it's about price. Yes, because a lot of people have similar things but it's also about service and how. You can give them a better experience in buying. Whatever everybody else is selling and people are willing to pay for for things like experience and all that so you want to like I said build a case ah of reasons you know bullet points and reasons why you are the best provider of whatever that service is ah. You want to? um gosh what else Um, do I'm going to actually got my well cheat sheet here. Um look at ah you know like I said your customer avatar and say you know who define exactly who it is you want to talk to. And sharpen that up um, be consistent build a consistency across your ah your organization with how people talk to what symbols you're using you know I worked at a couple universities where. Oh we're changing a logo and never I said well we're wasting this or you know they like the old logo. No no, no, everybody's got to be on that same page and build that consistency across because that's how the world is seeing us and it's it's important that we speak with None voice because we don't other people are going to talk about us. About things that we may not want or may not even be true because we're not being consistent. So that's all the stuff that and more like little basic stuff. So then they can come to you and you say wow I got this platform to work with here. You guys have been doing all these great things. But now let's take it up another level. Ah, technologically notice I didn't talk about technology I didn't talk about um about advertising I didn't talk about any of that stuff because you got to get this baseline stuff down none.
24:53.43
Taylor Shanklin
Well and once she said about consistency brings us full circle around the None point with the guys showing up angry right? And how marketing is everything and let's just say everywhere and all aspects of how your company or your organization are presented to the world. So.
24:59.75
Matt Hug
Um, yeah.
25:12.20
Matt Hug
There's a great book out there called the to sell is human and I want to say it's Dan Arley if I'm not mistaken or maybe it's pink I forget but um, it's a really good um ah discussion on.
25:12.60
Taylor Shanklin
Love that.
25:28.23
Matt Hug
That we sell all the time as humans whether it's hey you know what are we having for dinner tonight and you want hamburgers and somebody else wants hot dogs right? Or ah, what you know you're negotiating your salary or talking about a sales Call. We're always selling something in our life. Just have to step back and realize that and then bring out the better selves of us.
25:51.95
Taylor Shanklin
So well Matt Hug to close us out I have a final question for you on top chisel we like to drop the real hissel and I'm making up words that rhyme with fizzle. Yeah, it's fun.
25:55.13
Matt Hug
Um, oh.
26:04.37
Matt Hug
I Know you're going to add.
26:09.85
Taylor Shanklin
So we'd we'd like to talk about failures and obstacles and how you overcome them give us ah an entrepreneurial obstacle that you overcame and and how you overcame it.
26:20.58
Matt Hug
Well I will say it me say I think I was my biggest entrepreneurial obstacle. Ah you you have to value yourself. You have to value your services and and it's really hard because at least some of us. Broad but an environment where you don't ah talk up yourself and what you do you? Ah you know you don't sell you don't market yourself right? and it's um, you got to say to yourself. Yeah, you know I believe in what I'm doing what I am doing is um. Hugely important to not only myself, but everybody who can use that service and get out there and do it. How did I overcome it? Um gosh. Ah yeah, some Ah um, some bad quotes on things where I gave away a lot more than I should have for the what I was doing. I I Um ah some ah some deep conversations with spouses and and other counselors who would tell me you know you're really and that's the thing you know other people see things in you that you think are normal and so they will see that. Like if if you're really good at math. You might think everybody's really good at math. Why can't they do that right? but somebody will say to you? Wow, you're really good at math and it's like oh well isn't everybody. Yeah that they're not so value that in yourself and offer that to others. Um. And it's that kind of thing that you have to start listening to other people about what they're telling you that you are good at and that kind of comes down to something else I learned is follow the market you know because people will tell you what you're good at and ah give you hints and nudges in that direction you have to be able to hear it. And that's another way of getting past that obstacle is is stepping back and listening a little more in in um, intentionally.
28:22.10
Taylor Shanklin
I I love that listen to the market all right? Matt Hug this has been great I've enjoyed the conversation. Thanks so much for joining us so people if they want to go learn from you. Go check out your website. It's nonprofit courses nonprofit dot.
28:30.20
Matt Hug
Oh thank you.
28:36.22
Matt Hug
Um, nonprofit dot courses right? Yeah Link Linkedin is great I'm sorry what? yeah.
28:41.70
Taylor Shanklin
Courses and is there any other way you want people to get in touch with you Linkedin and these social channels tick to house I said Tick Tock perhaps
28:54.16
Matt Hug
I actually started a Tiktok account the other day I need to start doing stuff with it. Um, but I know um, ah yeah, Linkedin Linkedin is the next best place if not that go to the website contact page pop me a note or go to Linkedin and reach out not a problem. Um.
28:57.34
Taylor Shanklin
But so um, but.
29:13.48
Matt Hug
Love to hear from folks and like I said nonprofit dot courses. That's the whole url. So um, you know I tell folks Click early and often.
29:22.20
Taylor Shanklin
I love it click early and often all right? Well thanks so much. Everyone for listening today. Hope you got some good nuggets and busted a few of maybe those myths that you had in your brain about marketing. Thank you so much Matt Hug we'll see you next time.
29:36.22
Matt Hug
Hey thank you bye.